


Third Eye Podcast, Episode 328: Sam and Dean Winchester on Soulmates

by aceofhearts61



Category: Supernatural
Genre: 15x20 Fix-It, Alternative Lifestyles, Alternative Universe Post-Show, Episode: s05e16 Dark Side of the Moon, Future Fic, Gen, Long-term singlehood, Platonic Life Partners, Platonic Relationships, Platonic Soulmates, Podcast, Relationship Discussions, Relationship Study, Sam and Dean are soulmates, Single-positive, Singlehood, Soulmates, The Samulet - Freeform, Transcript Format
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2021-02-16
Updated: 2021-02-16
Packaged: 2021-03-18 10:02:02
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 7,544
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/29487969
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/aceofhearts61/pseuds/aceofhearts61
Summary: Sam and Dean, quasi-retired from hunting, appear on a podcast to talk about being soulmates.
Relationships: Dean Winchester & Sam Winchester
Comments: 2
Kudos: 18





	Third Eye Podcast, Episode 328: Sam and Dean Winchester on Soulmates

[Intro Music]

JOE RIDGE, HOST: Hey, everybody, welcome to tonight’s episode of The Third Eye Podcast. I’m your host, Joe Ridge, coming to you live from an undisclosed location in the continental U.S. of A. I got a couple of very special guests on the show today…. Sam and Dean Winchester. If you’re a part of the hunting world, you’ve definitely heard of them. For our listeners who aren’t familiar with hunting, no worries. We’re not actually going to focus on that too much, although the Winchester brothers gotta have some of the wildest stories around on that front. We’re going to go in a little bit of a different direction and talk about the concept of soulmates.

So, without further ado, let’s welcome the Winchester brothers to the show. Hi, guys. Thanks for coming on.

SAM WINCHESTER: Hey, Joe. Thanks for having us.

DEAN WINCHESTER: Yeah, thanks, man. Love the show. It’s pretty cool to be here.

JR: How long have you been listening in? Do you both follow the show or just you, Dean?

DW: I think I stumbled onto Third Eye a few years back when I decided to look into podcasts. I’ve listened to every episode since then. 

SW: I’ve got so many podcasts I try to follow and not enough time. But I do enjoy yours, Joe, especially now that my brother and I are semi-retired from hunting.

JR: Semi-retired? What does that mean? Is that even possible?

DW: It basically means we only go on hunts when Sam feels like it, which is not that often.

SW: We actually hunt more than I would like—I wanted to retire from it completely but Dean wouldn’t be able to stand that, so. Compromise, I guess.

JR: Sam retiring and Dean staying full-time wasn’t an option?

SW & DW [overlapping]: No.

SW: Absolutely not.

DW: He wouldn’t let me hunt alone.

JR: Oh, is that the deal? Together or not at all?

SW: Pretty much. I mean, if Dean wasn’t willing to hunt part-time, if he was hellbent on keeping things the way they were before, then I would be out there with him full-time just like I always was. I really don’t like the idea of him hunting alone, which is pretty much what he’d be doing if he didn’t have me tagging along. [pause] Fortunately, he understood when I told him I was tired and needed the change, so we’ve been keeping this very part-time hunting pattern the last few years.

DW: I gripe about it, but in all honesty, it’s been good. It’s been kinda nice to not have our asses on the chopping block day in and day out. Actually kinda took some getting used to at first. But now I’m probably comfortable with being comfortable, you know what I mean? I’ve got a real job that works for me, and Sam’s happy, so. I’m just rolling with it, man. I never thought I’d step away from hunting, I thought I was gonna die on the battlefield, but—now, I think I can be okay with hunting being a part of my life instead of my entire life.

JR: What other work do you guys do, if you don’t mind my asking?

SW: I’m a community college professor. I teach anthropology and English lit.

DW: It came as absolutely no surprise when he went full nerd the second he got the chance. I do a couple different things to pass the time between hunts. I’m a part-time mechanic, and I also volunteer with the local fire department, which has been pretty cool.

SW: I’m still a little bit amazed the fire department let him join, given his age.

DW: You wound me.

SW: How many fifty-year-old firefighters have you met, Dean?

DW: I’m a bigger badass than ninety-nine percent of guys in their twenties—so are you, for the record—and I can still totally kick most of their asses.

SW: Uh-huh.

JR: I mean, to be fair, Sam, the stories I’ve heard about the Winchester brothers’ glory days are pretty impressive. I know I wouldn’t want to tussle with either one of you, and I’m a little bit younger than you guys.

SW: I just feel the need to remind my brother he’s not twenty-five anymore. If I don’t, he’ll push his body more than he should.

DW: I actually think working with the fire department has been a good way for me to stay in shape, now that I’m not hunting as much anymore. I’ve never really been the gym rat type, you know? And where we live, there’s barely a gym to use anyway.

JR: We’re not going to disclose your location on air for obvious reasons, but you’re in a pretty small town, right?

SW: Yeah, there are a few thousand people out here, and we’ve got a place that’s outside of town, so we really only bump into people when we mean to. The college I work at is actually in the nearest city about a half hour away.

DW: It’s a pretty cool town. I’ve seen this whole country a thousand times over, and we could’ve done a lot worse with where we ended up.

JR: So let’s get to the meat and potatoes of tonight’s conversation. Soulmates.

SW: Soulmates.

DW: That word still gets under my skin, but I’m now mature enough to deal with it.

SW: I don’t think you got more mature. I think you just got old enough to stop giving a damn about things that never should’ve mattered in the first place.

DW: What is with you calling me old tonight? Damn. You realize you’re only four years behind me, right?

SW: I have no problem with acknowledging the fact that I’m middle-aged. Joe, where do you want to start?

JR: I guess we should start with the basics. Plenty of our listeners have encountered the concept of soulmates before. It’s pretty ubiquitous in pop culture and what have you. Folks in the New Age and spiritual communities often have their own beliefs about soulmates and twin flames and whatever. But one reason I wanted to have you guys on the show to talk about this is you bring a totally different take on the soulmate concept to the table, one that isn’t really out there in the mainstream. So why don’t we start with what you think of the soulmates concept and why?

SW: So…. I don’t know about Dean, but I never really thought about soulmates when I was growing up or when I was a young man. I’m sure I heard the term early in life, like you said in pop culture, but I just didn’t really give it any thought. I think if you’d asked me as a kid whether I believed in soulmates, I probably would’ve said no or just shrugged it off. When I was in college, I had a girlfriend I was pretty serious about, and I thought about proposing to her…. But I never framed that relationship in my mind as a soulmates thing. “Soulmates” the way most people use the term is basically this idea that you’ve got one person in the world who’s the perfect romantic partner for you, and if you’re lucky enough to meet that person, you’ll live happily ever after together, right? I never really thought about romantic relationships that way when I was young, and I guess I still don’t. That hasn’t been my experience. Which is why I’m here talking to you. [chuckles] Um, so, when I was about twenty-six or twenty-seven years old, my brother and I found out in a totally crazy circumstance we don’t need to get into right now that we’re soulmates. And that’s not just some cutesy thing we decided to believe or whatever. We were actually told by somebody with some spiritual authority. And we weren’t looking for that information at all. It just kinda fell into our laps, and we didn’t even talk about it for the longest time. Like years. But I think once we found out, that truth was always sort of in the back of our minds. I know I never forgot about it, and I thought about it from time to time, especially when my brother and I went through difficult periods in our relationship.

[pause]

DW: Yeah, I definitely never forgot that piece of information after hearing it for the first time. I thought about it over the years too, and I guess maybe held onto it when I needed to, when things between me and Sam got rocky.

SW: That’s why I kept the amulet all those years.

DW: What do you mean?

SW: [pause] It was always a symbol of our brotherhood, but after that—trip where we found out we’re soulmates, I guess the amulet became a symbol of that for me too. I kept it as a reminder that we’re bound in this spiritual way, which gave me hope that one day we would be on good terms again. Things were…. really fucked up back then. Finding out we were soulmates actually helped me keep my head above water and believe you’d forgive me.

[long beat of silence]

DW: I’m sorry I tossed the amulet. I always regretted it. Still regret it. I almost turned the car around that day to go back for it.

SW: Well, you wouldn’t have found it.

DW: I’m glad you kept it.

SW: Me, too.

JR: What do you think the two of you being soulmates means? 

DW: We never really got an explanation. Somebody told us in passing, and we just kinda moved along without asking questions. Nobody ever broke down for us what the soulmate thing means or what it was supposed to mean. And see, based on what we know about the other side, God and souls and Heaven and Hell and fate and all that crap, I don’t even know if Sam and I would care what outside forces wanted it to mean for us.

SW: I don’t care.

DW: Me neither. So what I’m saying is for us, whatever meaning there is is the meaning we choose.

SW: Yeah. I agree one-hundred percent.

DW: I don’t really care what other people think soulmates are or what a soulmate relationship is supposed to be. And I know they probably have totally different ideas about this stuff than what I think of my brother and I and our relationship. Which is fine.

SW: Correct me if I’m wrong, Joe, but when we agreed to come on the show and talk about this, I got the impression one reason you wanted us to give our take on the subject is _because_ we don’t fit the romantic stereotype. Pretty much everybody thinks of soulmates and soulmate relationships as that ultimate, fairy-tale romance with a sexual partner who was made for you. That’s the cultural narrative, it’s the story that gets told in movies and books, and it’s what so many people spend their lives looking for. They’re not looking for a soulmate outside of romantic relationships. They’re not interested in that.

JR: Right. You’re right, I did want to get your take on soulmates because your personal experience is so different from everything I’ve ever heard on the subject. And it’s not every day you even encounter people who know for a fact they are soulmates, let alone guys like you who are not a couple but brothers. I just think it’s fascinating the way you two turn the whole soulmate concept on its head. So I’m hoping you’ll speak more to that.

DW: I didn’t need to know or think about Sam and I as soulmates to put him first or to want him with me for life. I always felt that way. He’s my brother, and that always seemed like reason enough. And even after we found out about the soulmate thing, I didn’t focus on that when I thought about our relationship or how much he meant to me or how much I needed him. I just kept thinking, “He’s my brother.” Now, I guess, I’ve let the soulmate idea creep into my perspective of us a little bit more, but if somebody asked me to explain why Sam is the most important person in my life, I wouldn’t say “Because he’s my soulmate.” I would say “He’s my brother.”

SW: But you realize now that most people, most civilians out there who have siblings, don’t feel the same way about their siblings as we do about each other.

DW: Right. Yeah. I get that.

SW: Like, it’s not even close. So if you tried to explain us to those people with the brother thing, they would have no idea what you’re talking about. They’d look at you like you’re speaking another language.

DW: Well, most people haven’t had the lives we’ve had. Nothing important about us translates in the average person’s life. We’ve never been average.

SW: True. I’m just trying to get at the fact that even if you explain what we have to yourself with the fact we’re brothers, the soulmate thing really does have a lot to do with it. It’s not a peripheral detail.

JR: So you would say your relationship with each other, your brotherhood, is not like other people’s sibling relationships.

SW: Oh, definitely not.

DW: Well, it’s the same in some ways. In a lot of ways, actually. When we were kids, I think we were more similar to other siblings our age. It’s when we hit adulthood, especially after I pulled Sam back into hunting when he was just about done with college, that we started to build a dynamic with each other that’s different from other people’s sibling relationships.

SW: When I look back on our lives, at everything we’ve been through since I was 22, it makes perfect sense to me that Dean and I have the relationship we have. But I also find the soulmate concept really helpful in explaining it too. I think a lot of the things that happened in our lives happened because we were always soulmates, and those events also brought us closer and contributed to the depth and importance of our relationship. It’s been a feedback loop, you could say.

JR: So, it sounds like for Sam and Dean Winchester, being soulmates means commitment and exceptional closeness, but there’s also a spiritual aspect to it too.

DW: Commitment has always been huge for me, with Sam. I’ve been committed to him and our relationship my whole life, and it’s the strongest, biggest commitment I’ve ever had. When we were younger, I felt like he wasn’t committed to our relationship in the same way, and that was really hard. I didn’t want to find a wife or a girlfriend and make that kind of more traditional romantic commitment—that’s never been something I needed, although I did it a few times in my life when Sam wasn’t around—I just wanted Sam and I to stay together and hunt.

SW: I think that’s a big distinction we have to make. You were always committed to hunting. You made that decision early in life, probably when you were still a teenager. Hunting’s your other big life commitment. I wasn’t willing, as a kid, to commit to hunting as a lifestyle, but that had nothing to do with you. But then, because hunting became your life and became an integral part of who you are, I couldn’t be committed to you without committing to the job. That’s where there was some tension in those early years. I don’t think I ever actually wanted to be away from you, Dean, any more than you wanted to be away from me. But when I was eighteen, I was willing to put myself through that separation just to make my attempt at becoming something other than a hunter. I think that was part of me trying to grow up and become a man: strike out on my own and choose my own path. And then somewhere along the line, after you and I started hunting together as adults, I got to the point where being with you mattered enough that I was willing to make the job my life too. Of course, there was a bunch of other crap going on that made it impossible for either one of us to get out anyway, but what I mean is, once I resolved in my own mind the issue of being a hunter instead of a civilian, I was all in, right there, with you. And it didn’t really take long for it to become totally unthinkable for me to walk away from you in order to try to be normal on my own. Especially after Dad died, it was like—I couldn’t imagine leaving you and the job and all the responsibility I felt I had to the job.

DW: [pause] It took me a long time—a really long time, like I don’t think I understood this until a few years ago—to see that difference. And I think cutting back a lot on hunting and transitioning to this quasi-civilian life helped me get it more than anything else could’ve. I actually think maybe I had this screwed up idea when we were younger that if not for hunting, we wouldn’t really have much of a bond. Like once we got sucked into all the bigger cosmic stuff that went on in our lives after Dad died, a part of me kinda suspected you were sticking around because you did feel responsible to the world and it didn’t really have anything to do with me.

SW: Which is ridiculous.

DW: I see that now.

SW: Hunting was the only thing that created any distance between us, although I acknowledge it kept us close in ways civilian siblings generally aren’t.

JR: I’ve talked to a lot of hunters over the years, on air and off, and I’ve definitely noticed the job has a tendency to create relationship dynamics the civilian world would consider unconventional or different or even weird. It’s not just you guys, FYI.

SW: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me at all. For a long time, Dean and I were working alone, pretty much. We didn’t really have a network in the hunting world. We ended up building one eventually, I guess, but we never had many close friends who were already hunters when we met them. So I for one never really thought about or noticed whether Dean and I were exceptional for hunters, as far as our personal lives and our relationship went. I will say many of the hunters we met over the course of about three decades were single. That’s something we had and continue to have in common with our people in the life. I think in the hunting world, singlehood is the norm, whereas in the civilian population, marriage and romantic relationships equivalent to marriage are the norm.

JR: I think you’re right. And that’s an interesting point, an interesting distinction. I want to get back to the spiritual part of the Winchester soulmate relationship, but can you give us your take on singlehood? Are you both single now and how do you think that corresponds with your relationship?

SW: We are both single, and we’ve been single most of our adult lives, which I never really paid much attention to when we were hunting but I guess that’s considered weird in mainstream society?

DW: I love being single. I always have. I think that’s my default state. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love sex too. [laughs] The two have never been at odds in my life. But yeah, singlehood just always felt like the easier, more comfortable way to live. When you’re a full-time hunter with no home base, the way Sam and I grew up and the way we lived for several years in our twenties and thirties, being single goes with the territory unless you luck out or work really hard to date. And it just never bothered me, being single. It was great when I was in my twenties. I’ve had a couple girlfriends here and there, and there were good things about those relationships. But I never found myself thinking, “God, this is it, this is the key to happiness, and if I could just find a way to get the wife and kids, I’d be set.” I guess I’m sort of perfect for hunting, in that sense. It never really felt like a sacrifice to me, although there were times when I had this fantasy of a normal, peaceful life where I just took it for granted there’d be a romantic relationship.

SW: You are built for the hunting life. I don’t know if that’s nature, nurture, or a combination of the two, but in any case…. I’ve always been more inclined to date than my brother, and I think one reason for that is I’ve never been into casual sex the way he is. I had a really serious relationship with my college girlfriend, who I mentioned earlier, and then she died suddenly and I just didn’t really get involved with anybody romantically until years later, during a period where Dean was missing. I hooked up and sort of casually dated here and there between those two relationships…. Obviously, a man has needs, but I was single. And I was okay with that, mostly, I think. Honestly, we had so much going on, I didn’t have the time or the space or the mental capacity for an actual romantic relationship or to be upset over not having one. When I was a young guy in my 20s, I went through this period where I felt like it would be wrong and irresponsible of me to date anybody, let alone get married and have kids, because my life was so full of danger and turmoil. And I think a lot of hunters feel that way. You gotta remember too that many hunters enter the life as a result of losing a loved one to the supernatural, and in some cases, the person they lost was a husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend. That’s what happened to our dad, who never had a serious girlfriend or remarried after our mom died. He became a hunter, and that was it. The rest of his life was about the job and my brother and I. So it’s definitely more common, I would say, for full-time hunters to be single long-term than it is for them to be coupled, and there are several different factors playing into that.

JR: Do you think your relationship with your brother gives you a reason to stay single? This is a question for both of you.

SW: I think our relationship makes it way easier to be single, sure. We’re partners, both professionally and personally.

DW: Hell, we’re soulmates.

SW: Yeah, we’re soulmates. So it’s not like us being single looks the way it does for a lot of other people out there. We’re single, but we’re not alone. We’re not flying solo through life.

DW: I’m happy being single and having Sam as my co-pilot. It’s my best case scenario. I’m sure if I wanted a girlfriend, he’d be cool with it, but I don’t need one.

SW: I’m not single because of my relationship with Dean. I’m single because I’m comfortable with being single, and I haven’t met anyone recently who made me want to try a romantic relationship again. If I’m single the rest of my life, that’s okay. I’m not going to sit here and say I’ll never go on another date as long as I live or whatever, but I don’t hope to end up with a girlfriend or a wife. I’m happy where I’m at.

JR: You think if you didn’t have each other, you’d be married or at least seriously involved with somebody romantically?

DW: I mean, all other things about our lives being equal, if we didn’t have each other, we’d be dead.

SW: I think he means if we didn’t have the relationship we’ve got with each other, would we be doing the couple thing. And I would say yes, probably. But to my brother’s point, or rather the point behind his point, that scenario couldn’t exist in this reality. We would have to be totally different people with totally different histories and lives to not have the relationship we’ve got.

DW: Right. I want to add, though, that I think there’s a pretty good chance I’d still be single if I didn’t have Sam. Yeah, maybe I’d date more, but I don’t think I would be so radically different as a person that I’d be married with kids, happily monogamous, blah blah blah. That’s just not me, you know?

JR: I think what most people want, ultimately, is a companion they can go through life with and count on. They want to feel important to somebody and experience a certain amount of intimacy with that person. I don’t mean sex but an emotional and psychological intimacy. And for most people, they find all that or look for it in romantic relationships, in marriage. But you two have it with each other. So for other people, being single means living without that companionship, that intimacy, that connection. But the two of you are single and share all of those things with each other. And that’s really cool.

SW: I like the word “companion.” That’s what Dean is to me, and that’s what I am for him. I think we do give each other all of those benefits other people seek in marriage, and I don’t think our relationship is any less meaningful or beneficial just because it’s missing the sex part and the romance part. I don’t feel like I’m settling for less by maintaining this platonic relationship with my brother as my most important relationship, my partnership.

DW: I can absolutely live without a romantic relationship. I can’t live without Sam. And I’ve always felt that way. When I’ve had girlfriends in the past, I didn’t experience the same kind of bond with them that I have with him. I can’t really explain it, but it’s just not the same. And that’s nothing against those women. Those weren’t bad relationships or anything, at least not from my perspective. But I just didn’t feel with them what I feel with Sam, which is this sense of wholeness…. That’s the soulmate thing, I guess.

SW: Yeah. That’s the soulmate thing.

DW: I don’t think any other human being could understand me as well or as completely as my brother does. And I don’t think anyone has ever or could ever accept me as I am the way he does. Sam and I have always had our differences, but he’s never tried to make me into something or someone I’m not. And because we grew up together in the life, hunting, I’ve never had to hide any part of myself from him. That’s really important to me.

SW: It’s important to me too…. I feel the same way. I don’t think anyone’s ever known me as well as Dean, accepted me as I am the way he does, or seen me the way he has. You know, every girlfriend I ever had, what few of them I’ve had—they didn’t know anything about my childhood or my life as a hunter or that the supernatural exists. I never felt like I could tell them those things. And looking back on it, I’m kind of amazed I believed a romantic relationship could survive long-term with that level of secrecy and…. Not dishonesty, exactly, but like, masking, I guess.

JR: Would you say that’s another item on the criteria list for a soulmate relationship, then? Or your soulmate relationship? The freedom and the ability to be completely yourself all the time and to experience the other person’s acceptance?

SW: Definitely.

DW: Yeah, for sure. And I think for people like us, that’s a lot more important than it is for the average civilian because we can’t be honest and open about who we are and what we do with the majority of people out there. We just can’t. And it’s a barrier to closeness, for sure. Most people aren’t hunters, and most hunters are not in your physical presence regularly. It was always the norm, in our experience, for hunters to lead a nomadic lifestyle and to hunt alone or maybe with one other person. And I think that’s a big part of why Sam and I know each other better than anyone else we’ve ever met—we’ve spent literally years alone in a car together. We grew up bunking in motel rooms together, and then as adults, it was more of the same for a really long time. When you spend that much time together with someone else, next to no privacy, you get to know him in a way most civilians just don’t know anyone.

SW: Better than a lot of married couples, even.

DW: Yeah. I mean, we’ve seen it all, when it comes to each other. And we couldn’t really hide things from each other if we tried, at least not for long. Now, you know, we got a house, we each have a room of our own and we’re not on the road much. But man, for decades, it was like…. We’re in the car together or we’re in a motel room together or we’re working the job together or we’re grabbing a bite at some hole in the wall together. You just can’t spend that much time with someone else, for most of your life, unless you genuinely enjoy the person’s company. And sure, we’d get on each other’s nerves periodically, but…. I can honestly say I’ve always been happiest with Sam at my side. I don’t get tired of him. Even after all that time together, living the way we did, I’m not even a little bit sick of him.

JR: Cue the “awwwww” from our listeners.

DW: Seriously. It’s true.

SW: Thanks, Dee. I’ve never been sick of you either.

DW: Except that one week in 2006 when we hunted the trickster.

SW: (snorts) Yeah, right, the “trickster.”

DW: You know, I used to be afraid if we quit hunting, you would leave. That’s a big reason I resisted the idea of retiring from the job. Don’t get me wrong, I love the job, but if I had known you were going to stick around no matter what, I would’ve been way more likely to quit or go part-time years ago.

SW: I have no idea when exactly it became true for me, but I haven’t been willing to live apart from you for a really long time. Like, years and years. And it’s funny because I would’ve left hunting a lot sooner if not for you. I didn’t think you would follow me if I quit.

DW: Of course, I would’ve followed you. I would’ve bitched about it quitting the job, but I still would’ve done it.

JR: That is pretty impressive, guys. The fact you like each other so much that you could basically live in each other’s pocket for thirty years and not drive each other completely bananas. I don’t think my wife and I could pull that off.

DW: So you see why, for me at least, the idea of trading my relationship with Sam for a marriage or a romantic relationship with somebody else just doesn’t really make sense.

JR: I mean, yeah, like, who can compete with that? You meet somebody in your forties or your fifties who you might date or fall in love with, sure, it could be nice, but…. The odds of you forming the kind of bond you’ve got with your brother, with that romantic interest are pretty low. And frankly, as someone who doesn’t have a soulmate but who does have a spouse, I gotta tell you not everybody is even built for or interested in the kind of relationship you two have with each other. Like, I love my wife, and I wouldn’t want to live without her, but…. I don’t think I could handle the kind of closeness and the intensity of that closeness you seem to have with each other. And I don’t think I know any other married people who could either.

DW: I’ll take that as a compliment.

JR: It is a compliment! So, not to be a Debbie Downer, but I’m curious if you think there are any downsides to having this soulmate relationship with each other or downsides to having a soulmate in general.

SW: Ha! Are there any downsides….

DW: God, where do we even start to answer?

SW: I don’t think we should lay out all the details of our worst hits for the internet to hear, but….

DW: Yeah, no, we don’t have to get specific. Let’s just say we’ve suffered a lot for this relationship. We’ve been through literal hell. And I would do it all again if I had to—

SW: Agreed.

DW: But we’ve been through more crap than most people, civilian or hunter, will ever have to worry about. And there’s no sugar-coating it. A bunch of really fucked up shit happened to me and my brother. Most of it we didn’t deserve, and only some of it was our own fault. And if we weren’t soulmates, if this relationship didn’t matter as much to us as it does, then a lot of that stuff could’ve been avoided.

SW: I think it bears mentioning, though, that we survived everything we went through in part because we had each other.

DW: Also true.

SW: If I hadn’t had you to fight for, to live for, to do right by, there’s no way I would’ve made it this far.

DW: Me neither.

SW: So to the listeners, I’ll say having a soulmate is not all rainbows and unicorns. It’s profoundly meaningful, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. But it can also be excruciatingly painful and difficult and create problems and complications in your life you wouldn’t have to deal with otherwise.

DW: Yeah, life was a shit show for both of us most of the time when we were hunting, and not just because of the job. It was mostly because we kept losing each other or almost losing each other, and we were willing to do anything to get each other back or protect each other or whatever. We couldn’t let each other go. And when you know what we know, you have options that are not available to most people out there. Those people wouldn’t have a choice but to accept the loss of their spouse or their boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever. We didn’t have to accept losing each other permanently, so we refused to. And the cost of cheating death is always high. Always.

SW: I do think there are plenty of civilians who wouldn’t do what we’ve done to hang onto a partner, even if they could. Even if they knew how. And I think they would have a much easier time moving through grief and moving on from the loss of a partner than we could if one of us lost the other. And I think us being soulmates explains that difference between us and them.

DW: The thing is, Sam and I both know exactly how it feels to lose each other to a death situation. We’ve both died before, more than once. So our fear of losing each other and experiencing the grief of that loss is not imagined for us, the way it is for most people and their relationships. We already know how that loss feels, and it’s just…..

SW: Unbearable.

DW: Completely unbearable.

SW: And see, that’s the price of having a soulmate, ultimately. Everybody thinks they want big love, the perfect partner, a soulmate who makes them feel complete in a way they aren’t otherwise. But I don’t think many people consider the fact if you have someone in your life who is that important to you and who you love that much, you’ll one day have to face the loss of that person or that person will have to experience losing you. Death is a part of life for all of us, and if you’re happy with somebody for the rest of your life, that means one of you is going to have to deal with the other person dying. I don’t mean to make light of other people’s losses and grief, I really don’t, but—I think most people out there who don’t have a soulmate, who don’t have the kind of connection Dean and I have, get to experience the death of a spouse or another loved one with a lot less pain than we’ve felt losing each other. Which is why they probably would never do the crazy shit my brother and I have done to get each other back. So, I guess what I’m trying to say is…. Having a soulmate does set you up for a more excruciating experience of loss when that inevitable day comes where your soulmate dies. That’s a very real downside you can’t avoid. None of us are going to live forever.

DW: I will say, briefly—because I don’t want to dwell on those memories—when I’ve lost Sam to death, it induced the kind of pain that was so overwhelming, I couldn’t think straight. It’s the kind of pain that strips you of your human-level thinking, and all you can focus on is making the pain stop. And I’ve lost other people to death. We both have. Losing my dad when I was 27 was one of the hardest losses I’ve ever been through, and it wasn’t even close to how losing Sam felt.

SW: Yeah. One of the biggest losses I’ve experienced was the loss of my college girlfriend. When she died, I was really young, I was 22. She died violently and suddenly in a supernatural situation, and it took me years to get over it. I still think about her from time to time. But every time I’ve lost Dean, it’s another level of grief and pain and…. Loneliness. That’s probably what makes it so much worse than any other loss. Being in the world without my brother makes me feel lonely in a way nothing else does.

DW: I’ve never thought about it that way, but you’re right. God, the loneliest times in my life have been when we’re fighting or when we’re physically apart. Those periods were bad enough, never mind when you were dead.

JR: I still can’t get over the fact you’ve both died and come back to life multiple times. We could do a whole episode just on that subject.

DW: I think we’re gonna have to plead the fifth there, man.

JR: Oh, no pressure, no pressure. I’m just saying.

SW: Is there anything else you want to ask us before we wrap up?

JR: Yeah, actually, I want to come back to the spiritual side of your relationship. When I’ve talked to other guests on the show about soul mates and twin flames and sacred sexuality, we often talk about the spiritual significance or spiritual qualities of these relationships, which is something that doesn’t usually come up in the pop culture narrative of soulmates. Do you think your soulmate relationship with each other is spiritual in nature?

SW: I would say yes, although the word “spiritual” is really vague because it’s so broad. It can mean a lot of different things.

JR: What does it mean to you, Sam?

SW: (pauses) When I was a growing up, I believed in god and angels the way a lot of civilians do, as these benevolent entities that could listen to my prayers and help me and my family. I felt like I had to believe in those things, in supernatural goodness, because evil was so real to me, and I worried about my own nature and my future. I never felt safe or in control, and I depended on my faith in a higher power to make up for that lack of safety and control. Eventually, I found out god and angels were not who or what I had believed they were, and that was really hard to accept. It made me feel more alone in the universe. It scared the shit out of me, actually. I was twenty-five years old with two dead parents, and I suddenly found out I really was on my own. No one bigger or more powerful than me was going to come save my ass, no matter how hard I prayed. And as much as that realization sucked…. Ultimately, it brought me to a new faith—faith in my brother and our relationship and in myself. I came to believe in us, as a team, a force in the universe. Instead of hoping god or some other morally good, supernatural being would offer me salvation and keep me from going dark side, I learned to believe in myself as an essentially good person because my brother believed I was. And because he needed me to be and I wasn’t willing to fail him. I’ve been through things that should’ve permanently wrecked me in some way, and the fact I’ve recovered from those experiences as much as I have is a testament not just to my own strength but to the power of my relationship with Dean. This relationship is what saved me. I don’t need a god or angels to lean on for protection and support because I have Dean Winchester. And I have the love we share as the one constant in my universe. That’s what I trust and believe in. And I don’t have to work for it. I don’t have to live by certain rules to keep it. I never had to earn it. It just is. And it’s always going to be. That’s what I mean when I say our relationship is spiritual.

JR: Wow.

DW: How am I supposed to follow that?

SW: (laughs)

DW: Seriously?

SW: What? He asked, I gave an honest answer.

DW: There is no answer I could give now that won’t sound pathetic.

SW: Oh, come on.

JR: Dean, I’d definitely like to hear your answer, if you’ve got one. Do you think your relationship with Sam is spiritual and if so, what does that mean to you?

DW: (pauses) I wasn’t like my brother as a kid. I didn’t pray. I didn’t believe in god or any friendly higher power out there. I embraced the view of the world Sam didn’t want to accept—that it’s a place full of evil, where plenty of good people get screwed, and all you can do is try to fight and defend yourself and protect the people you love. Eventually, like Sam, I learned I was wrong, and there was a god and angels and whatever. But it didn’t really change my understanding of this life because, like Sam said, god and his henchmen turned out to be just a bunch of other chess pieces on the board. I went through a lot of dark crap too. We both did. And I had my moments where I felt like I couldn’t fight the current of evil anymore. I couldn’t be strong anymore. I had to surrender and just let the dicks of the universe have their way with me. But I never did—because I couldn’t betray or abandon Sam. There were times when Sam and I hurt each other, I mean really hurt each other, and every time it seemed like maybe we couldn’t come back from it. We always came back from it. We always found it in ourselves to forgive each other. Our connection is stronger than we are as individuals. It’s pulled courage and forgiveness and resilience out of us we didn’t know we were capable of, that no human being should be capable of. And if it was either one of us on our own or with somebody else, I don’t think we would’ve been capable. Our relationship has made us greater men than we ever would’ve been without it. Is that spiritual? I don’t know. But it’s good enough for me.

JR: Sounds pretty spiritual to me, Dean. Is there anything else you two would like to say before we sign off?

SW: Yeah, I think I’d like to say this on air, to my brother. I love you, Dee. And I’m glad we’re soulmates.

DW: Love you too, Sammy. Thanks for being here.

JR: Thank you both for coming on the show and being so candid on the subject of soulmates. I really appreciate it.

SW: Thanks for having us.

DW: Yeah, this was cool, thanks.

JR: Sam and Dean Winchester, everybody. If you have thoughts on tonight’s episode, let me know in the comments on Facebook, Soundcloud, Youtube, etc. Until next time, peace out. 


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